By-election Update: Issues and Trivia on E-11
Have you checked out the new By-election Central website, yet?
Issues are coming into focus a bit more in some of the by-election campaigns:
- Winnipeg North NDP candidate Kevin Chief is announcing his plan to target Gang Crime at a noon news conference Thursday, according to a news release from his campaign. The plan is expected to target gang leaders in particular, and include both tougher laws and more support for the police.
- Meanwhile in Vaughan, Liberal candidate Tony Genco is questioning Conservative candidate Julian Fantino's hints about federal support for a new hospital in Vaughan in some recent interviews, given that hospital funding is a provincial issue. Healthcare also ranked highest as an issue amongst participants in Genco's recent tele-townhall, according to this story on the meeting in YorkRegion.com. (The story also provides a lot of details about the technology and process, including an interview with the service's vendor "Prime Contact").
- In Dauphin–Swan River–Marquette another set of elections are running parallel with the by-election: the Canadian Wheat Board directors' elections. Two of the 3 candidates for District 9 are from DSRM (John Sandborn from Benito in the north part of the riding near the Saskatchewan border, and Ernie Sirski of Dauphin), and one lives just slightly south of the riding's southern border (Gary Draper from Lenore). Sandborn and Draper are campaigning in favour of keeping the Wheat Board as a "Single Desk" buyer (the position of the provincial government, and the federal NDP and Liberals), while Sirski wants "increased flexibility and options" (the position of the federal government). As explained by the Western Producer's Barry Wilson, the former Conservative M.P. Inky Mark was known for voting against his government's plan to end the Canadian Wheat Board's monopoly on selling, in a riding that's said to favour the single desk. Conservative candidate Robert Sopuck has not included any material on his position on the Wheat Board on his website or Facebook page, but he is a former director of the Rural Renaissance program of the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, which has been an outspoken critic of the Wheat Board, calling it an "economic cult" in one case. In any event, the voting packages went out to eligible farmers on October 26, and they have until December 3 to have their return ballot postmarked, just 4 days after the by-election will be held, although the preliminary results won't be announced until December 11 or so.
In other quick hits:
- Further to the minor tempest that brewed over the Conservative nomination in DSRM, former riding president Wayne Mathison wrote a letter to the editor to the Winnipeg Free Press regarding Dan Lett's column on Inky Mark's parting shot.
- Speaking of the former MPs and their roles in the campaigns, Mr. Mark's activity in DSRM if any is not making it into print anywhere that I can see. Judy Wasylycia-Leis was spotted in the front row at Kevin Chief's campaign kick-off event with Jack Layton the other week. The question was going to be whether former Vaughan Liberal M.P. Maurizio Bevilacqua, being the only one of the three MPs to be successful in the recent municipal election, would be getting involved in the by-election effort to replace him. The word on Twitter last night is that he's not, and is going to be staying neutral, although admittedly that word is coming from the Conservative side (in whose interest it is that this be the case), and many creative theories are being, can we say fomented, as to why he might be bowing out. Probably it's simply because he *was* the only one to be elected, and municipal politics involves complicated alliances across party lines. On the other hand, photos from Tony Genco's campaign kickoff show that Mr. Bevilacqua was there, although those photos have now been removed from the masthead of Genco's website in favour of pictures of him with Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff and provincial MPP Greg Sorbara.
- Apparently an all-candidates meeting in Vaughan is being conducted by Rogers Cable (I can't find the date, though). The minor candidates were to be given a separate debate, but had a debate before the debate about just who qualifies as minor. Walker Morrow has the rundown on that from the Libertarian candidate's perspective, but suffice it to say, they're back to just one debate for everyone now.
- It looks like the Dauphin city council is organizing an all-candidates debate for DSRM, but I haven't been able to find out when either. Green candidate Kate Storey is unhappy about being excluded.
- There was a community forum on the Sandy Bay Reserve Wednesday, which was attended by NDP candidate Denise Harder and Liberal candidate C. Scott Sarna, according to her schedule and his Facebook page. Sarna's campaign is starting to do more events in the riding.
- CPAC is also doing filming for its riding profile of DSRM this weekend, during the Ukrainian festival in Dauphin. I haven't heard when they're filming the other ridings, or when the profiles are scheduled to broadcast, but I'll keep an eye out.
- Last night's all-candidates debate in Winnipeg North is being handicapped in various corners of the Internet (including comments on earlier posts here).
- A few knowing chuckles about an unfortunate typo in Liberal candidate Kevin Lamoureux's latest pamphlet, today. Apparently he has "18 years of proven service", but only "8 years of tackling the issues most important to you". Every campaign manager's nightmare.
- By way of update on the Free Press Filipino Flub (yes, I'm auditioning for a job as a headline writer myself, now), Mary Agnes Welch of the Free Press did speak with Conservative candidate Julie Javier on the issue for a follow-on story here. Late Wednesday the newspaper also published an online correction, entitled "Our Mistake".
- The tele-townhall fad is catching on: Kevin Lamoureux did one with Michael Ignatieff Wednesday night, as did Julian Fantino in Vaughan. The federal NDP also did a cross-country one Tuesday night on Healthcare with Megan Leslie, apparently.
The daily Facebook Fan Counts don't show any changes in rank, although Mr. Fantino has stalled while Mr. Genco has moved a bit further ahead now. Mr. Sopuck is standing pat, while Ms. Harder is continuing to grow steadily. And whatever momentum Mr. Lamoureux believes his campaign is getting is not showing up on Facebook, where Kevin Chief continues to roughly double his nearest opponent's count, even as both grow. In fact, Chief is the most popular of any of the by-election candidates across all three ridings on Facebook, and has been for two weeks since we started keeping track.
Vaughan – Facebook Count
Tally at 1:30 AM — Genco – 4491, Fantino – 419, Bordian – 192, Rodriguez-Larrain – 144
Nov 16 at 5:55 AM — Genco – 454, Fantino – 409, Bordian – 189, Rodriguez-Larrain – 141
Nov 15 at 3:35 AM — Fantino – 402, Genco – 395, Bordian – 184, Rodriguez-Larrain – 139
Nov 11 at 4:55 AM — Fantino – 379, Genco – 356, Bordian – 177, Rodriguez-Larrain – 115
Nov 8 at 6:20 AM — Fantino – 351, Genco – 323, Bordian – 166, Rodriguez-Larrain – 104
Nov 6 at 3:40 AM — Fantino – 343, Genco – 309, Bordian – 164, Rodriguez-Larrain – 100
Nov 4 at 1:40 AM — Fantino – 305, Genco – 260, Bordian – 85
Winnipeg North – Facebook Count
Tally at 1:20 AM — Chief – 1,227, Lamoureux – 625, Javier – 136, Coleman – 62, Harvie – 26
Nov 16 at 5:55 AM — Chief – 1,217, Lamoureux – 611, Javier – 127, Coleman – 59, Harvie – 25
Nov 15 at 3:35 AM — Chief – 1,203, Lamoureux – 595, Javier – 126, Coleman – 59, Harvie – 24
Nov 11 at 4:55 AM — Chief – 1,178, Lamoureux – 543, Javier – 119, Coleman – 56, Harvie – 4
Nov 8 at 6:20 AM — Chief – 1,167, Lamoureux – 528, Javier – 106
Nov 6 at 3:40 AM — Chief – 1,141, Lamoureux – 504, Javier – 96
Nov 4 at 1:40 AM — Chief – 1,118, Lamoureux – 434, Javier – 66
Dauphin – SW-M – Facebook Count
Tally at 1:20 AM — Harder – 177, Sopuck – 108, Storey – 79, Sarna – 54
Nov 16 at 5:55 AM — Harder – 163, Sopuck – 106, Storey – 77, Sarna – 51
Nov 15 at 3:35 AM — Harder – 155, Sopuck – 106, Storey – 77, Sarna – 48
Nov 11 at 4:55 AM — Sopuck – 103, Storey – 64, Harder – 20, Sarna – 19
Nov 8 at 6:20 AM — Sopuck – 91, Storey – 52
Nov 6 at 3:40 AM — Sopuck – 90, Storey – 50
Nov 4 at 1:40 AM — Sopuck – 55
Tags: Dauphin-Swan River-Marquette, Nov 29 2010 By-elections, Vaughan, Winnipeg North
Do you have any photos that show Maurizio at the event? I never found any. What would lead Maurizio to become or stay neutral?
What about his riding staff did they also jump ship to help him at his new job at Vaughan or stay behind to help Tony hold the riding?
I did have fun noting the use of colour in the political signage of Maurizio/Julian both had Blue-Red vs Tony only red.
It is plausible that Maurizio/Julian may have many shared network/friends. Both being born in Italy and having reached a level of success they may have attended similar events in the Italian community and even become ‘friends’.
In 2002 as Toronto Police Chief he joined Judy Sgro in a parade on Good Friday. It would make sense many Liberals in the Italian community would be split on party vs person.
No one is talking about if religious faith will play a role in the upcoming by elections. I remember some strong criticism against the Liberal Party regarding the issue of maternal health.
Winnipeg and Vaughan have a large Christian component. A non partisan study did raise the loss of the Catholic vote for the Liberals.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2010/03/liberal-party-of-canada-political-games.html
Is Julian Fantino an Italian Rockstar?
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2010/10/julian-fantino-vaughan-star-candidate.html
Non-partisan study on Liberal Defeat
http://ces-eec.org/pdf/Anatomy%20of%20a%20Liberal%20Defeat.pdf
The tele townhall trend is interesting , i have yet to participate in one myself , maybe cause i only have a cell phone here. its an interesting way of reaching a large number of voters . although it remains to be seen how effective it is and if it make any difference against a ridings longtime historical trends.
i wouldn’t read too much into the facebook numbers . rob sopuck has alot of support in dauphin swan river but i’d imagine that to be mostly rural and older not likely demographics to be on facebook . the ndp also seems to have a larger network of supporters on facebook which is likely why kevin chief has so many fans , i’m sure alot of them are not from winnipeg north.
CS, there is a photo on the Flickr site I believe.
RCO, I only raise this because it’s data to collect and we’ll see afterwards if it’s related. A study in the recent US mid-terms said it predicted 75% of the races’ outcomes. A political scientist I know thinks it’s just a rough indicator of local strength, and you’re probably right that it can’t be relied on equally in every riding (notably DSRM which doesn’t have much broadband). On the other hand, if someone won, who had very very little support on Facebook, I do think we’d both be surprised. But given we will likely have no public domain polls of a sufficient sample size in these ridings, it’s at least something.
Alice, I found a photo with Tony+Maurizio it was at a Cultural Dinner on October 30, 2010. If this part of on the masthead and taken down it might be a sign that the Liberals did not have support or endorsement and the use of his photo is misleading. What do you think?
RCO
I have zero faith in internet popularity rankings as a portent for political success.
It is not difficult to get the numbers of in FB or tweets.
I prefer views (traffic) and if these “internet” friends have donated or can direct local people to vote in the specific riding/contribute time to help.
CS, if you’re asking me what I think: I think you may be overanalyzing a tiny little bit for maximum comfort, just like I think the other folks are spinning to maximum effect. But a newly-elected mayor probably doesn’t want to get that visibly involved, it’s probably true. Not sure what else that means.
RCO
I “attended” the tele townhall most recently used during the civic election about the vieola water deals. Sure it was a partisan attack but it did get me to “attend” sitting at home eating supper and watching TV, which I would have not gone if I had to physically go some where. The concept was fantastic but does need a little bit of work to get more people involved.
Regarding the issue of whether or not all Tory candidates are systematically refusing to debate their opponents or be interviewed by any media – let’s put this issue to the test. I think NDP candidate Kevin Chief should propose a debate specifically on whether or not Canada should keep fighting in Afghanistan – and let Julie Javier pick the time and date. ANYTIME she wants to do it – the two Kevins will be there. Even if she wants to debate outside at 3am – as long as the full media is invited – the other candidates will be there. Why deprive people of a full candidates’ debate because of Javier’s busy schedule – let’s put her in charge – she can tell us what time fits into her schedule and then let the debate go on! Of course if the subject matter is Afghanistan – I strongly suspect that all of a sudden you will see the Liberal candidate suddenly being unavailable!
why do you figure Kevin L would say no to that?
oo as an FYI. The only candidate that sticks out in my head from the forum as even mentioning Afghanistan would be the communist candidate Frank Komarniski, I could be wrong as I dont have any recording of the event to go on.
Its pretty common knowledge that the Liberal Party is totally divided on the extension of the war in Afghanistan and they really don’t want to have to explain why their leaders views are at odds with most of their caucus and why the Liberal position seems to be identical to the Tory position etc…And, let’s face it – for Kevin L., a debate on Afghanistan is a lose-lose – either he (like most Liberal members, supporters and apparently MPs) opposes the continued Canadian involvement in the war – in which case he takes the NDP position and rejects Ignatieff’s position and the screaming headline in the Free Press is “Liberal rift over Afghanistan” OR he agrees with Ignatieff and Harper that Canada should keep fighting in the war – in which case the NDP gets to showcase its wildly popular position as the only party against the war – while Kevin L. and Javier have a little love-in and express their agreement with each other on how the war is such a good thing. Choose your poison!!
umm What do you mean keep fighting in the war?
We will cease all combat operations soon and only take on a training roll.
We will still have over 1,000 troops in Afghanistan, it is almost certain more of them will be killed, its highly debatable what exactly we are supposed to be “training” Afghan soldiers to do – given that the country has been in almost constant state of war for the past 35 years – the Afghans probably know far more about fighting than do some Canadian peacekeepers. Plus the mission is going to keep costing Canada BILLIONS of dollars. Imagine if all that money being flushed won the toilet in this unwinnable conflict in Afghanistan was diverted to paying for crime prevention initiatives in communities at risk in places like Winnipeg North?
Afghanistan has been in almost constant state of war for about 5000 years not just 35 :)
And I am not saying our soldiers should or should not be there, I am merely pointing out we wont be “fighting a war” according to the powers that be. So posting a debate about “whether or not Canada should keep fighting in Afghanistan” is moot.
If you buy the Tory/Liberals spin – we won’t be “fighting” in Afghanistan – just sending a thousand heavily armed soldiers there to be back-seat drivers and advisors to the people doing the fighting – while dodging bullets. Whatever you want to call it – all New Democrats and BQ MPs want it to end in 2011 and so do most Liberal MPs – except for their neo-con leader and foreign affairs critic who have decided to side with Harper.
I suspect that Kevin L. would rather have needles stuck through his eyeballs than be forced to express his personal opinion on whether Canada’s military role in Afghanistan should end in 2011. Whatever position he takes will be damaging.
no doubt, especially if you remember a certain Captain Robert Semrau, who was “commanding an operational mentor and liaison team with Afghan soldiers”
Sure sounds like training eh?
Why would the Conservative candidate debate a decision of providing aid that is within the role of the executive?
It would be like debating the appointment of senators or judges. The NDP are free to use their opposition days by introducing a policy to restrict those powers. It will be as successful as their Climate Bill.
Barney Frank had reached a similar point in his town hall with a person who was making a unfair criticism against the President.
Dean the NDP are using this issue to attack the divided Liberals. This is not about the good work or development being done by Canadians in military and other uniforms. This is not about the authority of the government granted to the executive to deliver aid.
The NDP have NEVER voted in favour of combat in Parliament. A fact they have never formed our National Government or reached 20% is an indication of the credibility of their policies and platform.
DL you do know that for some time now, even before the quake, Canada has been helping Haiti ?
We had a cop shot and killed in ‘05:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bourque
When the quake actually hit we had an active duty RCMP officer helping Haiti killed.
http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/423248–earthquake-claims-sgt-mark-gallagher-in-haiti-as-part-of-un-mission
I think if you asked Canadians if we are at war with Haiti they’d say no.
I think if you asked Canadians if we need a vote in parliament to send people to help Haiti they’d say no.
BTW – I can’t think of a single behind the wire death of a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan.
In that regard Haiti will probably be a more dangerous mission.
DL just to correct something else you said.
The mission won’t be costing “BILLIONS”, it’ll come in at about 600 million a year all told.
So a little less than the around 800 million spent for the G8/G20 or half of the CBC’s yearly budget. Basically a drop in the bucket.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/891575–afghan-extension-will-keep-950-canadians-in-kabul-until-2014
Alice slight typo on Genco FP numbers. * You added an extra 4.
I don’t have an FB account, just started a Twitter account. I am curious what the demographics and locations of the FB accounts are in those ridings.
Are your suggesting FB accounts are indicators in buzz for by elections or national?
I am of the mindset they can be manufactured to provide a fake sense of strength or relevancy. I have not seen any analysis of FB polling. Can you provide a link? Thanks
Dean sorry to hear about the demise of Baba.
Fantino had a tele-town hall with over 15,000 residents of Vaughan
http://www.julianfantino.ca/news/local_news/julian_fantino_widely_consults_vaughan_families
“Are your suggesting FB accounts are indicators in buzz for by elections or national?”
I would say based on Winnipeg’s most recent civic election FB “friend” numbers mean nothing.
Thanks for the typo report, CS. I’ve been on assignment today, but have been following the debate here where I could.
To answer your question, CS, I think FB accounts may be an indicator of organization – the kind of organization that’s necessary, but obviously not sufficient, in order to be in contention. Even if as you argue they are susceptible to manipulation, why, orchestrating that manipulation (as unseemly a concept as that is) still requires a level of organization … either that or some other kind of mass movement that can spontaneously assemble itself, although I’ve been around long enough to believe that this rarely happens without some kind of seeding, in real life.
“The NDP have NEVER voted in favour of combat in Parliament.”
There have been very very few votes on Canada going to war in the first place. but the CCF supported the declaration of war against Germany in 1939. The NDP also supported the NATO mission in Bosnia and Kosovo. The Afghan mission is the only time the NDP has NOT voted in favour of combat!
I found some article on the FB claims of 70-80% prediction claims. (Not buying it)
I remember reading Rob Ford campaign manager was doing some interesting stuff online.
I concede the numbers could mean some level of organization or just a few nerdy kids who know how to “freep” the polls.
DL,
I don’t consider the CCF the NDP as I don’t consider the PC, Reform, CA the CPC.
My statement may have been unfair about support for combat. We can agree to disagree about the motives of the NDP to challenge the government on their right to deploy troops for aid.
Today the NDP refused to allow term limits for Senators. So much for baby steps.
The NDP did cooperate in the Fall of 2009 to avoid an election and they attacked the LPOC.
Jack is not sincere to suggest “making parliament work” in Nov 2009 to avoid an election because party’s numbers are low.
NDPs 5% heating rebate on oil: his Climate Bill would drive up rates much higher on everything.
illegal donations to campaigns taking place?
from the Manitoba Election Finances Act
“Only individual residents may contribute
41(1) No person or organization other than an individual normally resident in Manitoba shall contribute to any candidate, leadership contestant, constituency association or registered political party. ”
Now go and look at some of the facebook sites of the candidates. Make sure to select “Candidate and others” so you can see all the comments.
I hope the campaign team takes the time to respond and state clearly that the donation will not be accepted and can not be.
Dean are you talking about the upcoming by-elections ?
I don’t believe they are covered by the Manitoba elections finances act. That’s a provincial law, not a federal one. The province has jurisdiction over financing for provincial elections.
I believe federal law allows for $1000 donations from any Canadian resident, regardless of where they live.
From the act:
http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e032e.php
“election” means
(a) a by-election to elect a person as a member of the Assembly, or
(b) a general election to elect persons as members of the Assembly; (« élection »)
Shadow’s right. Federal by-elections are conducted according to the rules in the federal Elections Act.
Mark, which tweet are you referring to? This one, by any chance:
I didn’t have the Twitpic window open anymore, unfortunately, so the scan they had of that frontpage is gone now, I guess.
ahh yes.. right.
duh.. federal election.. of course anyone from anywhere in the country could donate.
You know I am sick and tired of being lectured to about military duty and military issues by Liberals and Tories.
As a retired military officer of 20 plus years, and a supporter of the New Democrats, I have nothing to either learn, nor be lectured on by the Liberal and Tory partisans of this website.
Prior to the second World War, in the fight against Franco, it was the political left in the form of the Mac-Paps and the Abraham Lincoln brigade, which by the way included CCF sympathisizers, that were to fight the fascists, so don’t lecture me or my compartriots about partriotisn, or understanding war. You have NOTHING to teach us.
As far as Afghanistan, if you would bother to read, you would find a discussion about this in recent copy of the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives “Monitor” which detilas just how disingenuous are the the so called foundations for support of this war championed by you Liberals and Tories.
Here is a fact. The young men and women going overseas, are young men whom with whom I have served; I know each and every one of them. As a former leader, mentor, and friend to them, I can tell you it breaks my heart knowing they are going overseas FOR NOTHING. Nothing of any good will come of this. It is time to bring them home more, and I wish Kevin Chief had called out Mr. Lamoureux to talk on this. I dont’ doubt Mr. Lamoureux would have not provided a satisfactory answer. All the reasons above have been already cited why this would be so, as well as how the NDP has nothing to apologoize for its position on international conflict.
Why don’t you Liberals and Tories get off you high horses? You don’t Know anything about which you are speaking, and your arrogance is breathtaking. Shame on all of you.
Arthur B.B. Cramer, Lt(N), CD, Ret’d
Art Cramer thank you for your service.
I take the view that all parties have a reasonable position based in their own set of principles.
I don’t think its helpful to this discussion to call people names or shame them – that’s simply not appropriate conduct because its the not the Canadian way.
Considering that enlistment is very high and many soldiers are returning for their fourth or fifth tour of duty I would suggest that your view it not widely held amongst the men and women currently serving us.
Of course, like all institutions one would expect a wide range of opinions and political leanings amongst veterans, the military, and military families. Thanks for your sharing yours.
Sir or Madam:
First of all, thank-you for your kind words. However, please don’t me the Canadian way is not to speak ill of others.
I don’t recall you commenting similarl where it concerns those observations to the negative concerning the NDP. I notice our attempt to frame yourself as a postive and reasonable voice. This is an old saw tactic; you are simply trying to defect and redirect my commnetary to your advantage. This is a tired, old, and frankly trite rhetorical tool.
I don’t know if you have served. The fact that you attempt to speak for our men and women in service reflects you have not so served. Don’t attempt to speak for them, you haven’t the right.
Any soldie, sailor, or airmen will always willing accept the mission that is assigned them. This is what is remarkable, and the trait of the brotherhood of arms. It is true that there are many who have served more then 1 tour, however, not all do so willingly, or with any desire to do so. This I know from my continued association with those within the community of arms. However, we are drive to do so out of loyalty, and nationalism, and dedication to duty.
One thing that has necessitated so many tours for many is the fact that the military draws from a small pool of people. There is no real trend among the Canadian citzenry that reflects a desire to so serve, and this is where my biggest objection to Canadian military adventurism lays. If this is truly a war we are fighting, and a worthwhile cause, then there should conscription, and all citizens should be called to serve. If you want to enjoy the fruits of our society, you should have give something back.
Notwithstanding I understand why there is not conscription, and regret this ony as if there was so, we wouldn’t be in Afghanistan now. In your attempt at redirection, you ignore the issue of unnecessary military adventurism; Canada shouldn’t be ready to say “Ready Aye Ready”, simply because we are asked to do so, nor should be obligated to stay there any longer. It is very easy to discount objection when the sacrifice, financially, morally, and ethically doesn’t impact on you.
I say it again. I know these young men and women. Unlike you, I know why they enlisted. That we are so willing to allow them to die needlessly in a futile, and unnecessary conflict, is a tragedy of the first order. Do not attempt to tell me that my commentary is in any way, not reflective of “the Canadian way”. You haven’t earned the right. Make no mistake, this adventurism of real consequence and cost that will reap unwanted injury. Your commentary reveals you don’t understand, nor really appreciate the degree to which this is true.
No, I don’t owe you an apology, nor do I owe you reframing my voice and objection to the commentary above including own. It is the sacred duty of all citizen to speak against things unncessary and unjust. I am not willing to shirk my national duty to do so. Tragically, you shouldn’t be willing to do so either.
Mr. Cramer, every Canadian has the right to implore others to be polite and put aside personal attacks regardless of what capacity or to what degree they have served.
I did not ask for nor do I require an apology. I would ask that you stop making baseless assumptions about myself though and be more respectful of others.
You seem to be under the false impression that I am attempting to speak for the armed forces.
I did no such thing. It would be ridiculous for anyone, including yourself, to attempt to do so.
We each speak as individuals.
I acknowledged a diversity of opinions from veterans and military families on the war.
Will you do the same ? You seem to be asserting that your own services gives you the ability to speak for everyone in the armed forces and that they all hold your views.
Will you take responsibility for your views as your own and acknowledge that other people in the forces hold differing views ?
I would second Shadow and thank you for your service.
I have friends that have family overseas and they want to return and finish the mission. I am not sure that defines us as “chicken hawks” for supporting those in uniform who feel their work is making a difference.
Do you feel the billions in spending in DND by this government after the decade of darkness in not a reflection of a new level of support for our military or do you think this is for show?
Can you provide me with a link, articles by soldiers that are against the current mission?
I am curious of your views on this article by M. Paul Cook.
http://members.shaw.ca/canadaunderattack/CanadaUnderAttack.pdf
CS we live in a democracy with civilian control of the military.
Every Canadian is entitled to hold a view on the Afghanistan mission (for or against) whether they have served or not.
So the term “chicken hawk” has no place in discussion over the war.
I certainly hope that Art Cramer wasn’t trying to suggest Tories or Liberals who haven’t served aren’t entitled to a pro-war opinion.
Freedom of expression is one of the rights Canadian soldiers have fought and died for.
Well, thank you for the feedback. I dont’recall using the expression Chicken-hawk. I will admit however that I am pretty suspicious of people who haven’t or won’t serve but think war is a solution in the place of diplomacy, again especially where combat is being used in support of a unnecessary and purely avoidable conflict.
I notice this hasn’t been addressed in the commentary aimed towards me. I said simply, that I was tired of the tone of commentary levied against the NDP above. Especially after someone wrote explaining the NDP’s stance on National Defence, and its historical support of war in certain cases.
It is one thing to provide material to our troops, but it matters not where the purpose is for things unsupportable. But even more importantly, as has been shown by the recent scandal over the military ombudsman, and the treatemnt of Captain Bruyeau, whom I know by the way, I would suggest this so called “support” isn’t there where it counts. I know of several servicemen who have been short changed by “the system”, and are fighting to receive justice. So, don’t tell me about “support for the troops”.
As for the commentary of “Canadiansense”, my answer these are people I know, or who are good friends of other military people know both serving and retired. I can’t provide you a link; there isn’t one. These are people I know. That is about all I can say in reponse.
Concerning “Candaunderattack”. I skimmed through the article, and while there is more to read to truly understand it, it is consistent with my own personal views regarding National Defense. I believe all political parties have been negligent in terms of defense policy, although the NDP presented a White Paper proposal in 1988 that was well received by the military; I know this as this was a consensus that circulated among us at the time I served.
Certainly, we are dangerously undermanned and dangerously under equipped and unquestionably incapable of deterrng any real threat to our national soverignty, especially as it pertains to the possible opening of the “Northwest Passage”. The current Conservative government’s decison to downsize the Navy is wrong headed, irresponsible, and dangerous. I can tell you I have tried to provide my inupt on this to the current crop of NDP members and leaders, and will continue to do so.
Honestly though, I don’t think you pro combat and war operation supporters get it. I didn’t pertend to speak for the members of the service; but, if you really think I was just going to sit there and allow potshots at the NDP without responding, you are dreaming. I didn’t start the attack, and the commentary concerning the NDP certainly couldn’t be described as “complimentary”. On top of that, if you really think having been in the service I am going to sit by and watch this wrong headed idea of reality go unchallenged, you are kidding yourselves; it isn’t going to happen.
So, I am going try this again. I said that any soldier, airman, or sailor will be the first one to say they are committed to the mission; that is their collective nature. They understood this going in most of them, though many of them realy didn’t know what it would really mean. But what I am saying is I know these kids. And that is what a lot of them are, kids, babies, unexperienced young people who don’t know what they are getting themselves into. I was lucky in that I joined the service after being in University followed by some time in the workforce. I still was plenty suprised to learn some of the things I did, but I had a better idea about what to expect, and a more realistic and reasonable understanding about that which I was beginning.
I am absolutely convinced that many people with opinions such as yours have developed them based on no reference point other then some abstract idea of honour, service, duty and national defence. I am not convinced it goes much beyond that. Sure, you can your opinion, but you’re wrong, pure and simple.
I respect your right to post as you will, but I don’t have to accept it, nor do I have shy away from calling it for what is. Oh and by the way, I think it takes a lot of nerve to tell someone how “to act Canadian”. That is just the height of gall. I wonder if I am the one who should really be getting lectured about openmindedness or acceptance.
Just asking.
I wish the world would wake up. They are all the same. Tax and spend. Tax Tax Tax Tax.
Please I’m supporting Paolo Fabrizio the days of taxing should come to an end.
support a change or give a protest vote.
Vote Libertarian vote Paolo Fabrizio
Mr. Cramer nobody wants to stop you from giving your opinion and it sounds like its a very principled one. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
However, what people are objecting to is these assumptions you are making about others.
You seem to have this notion that nobody but you talks to members of the military.
Soldiers are involved in our communities, especially having just completed remembrance day recently I think most Canadians have spoken to any number of veterans, soldiers, and military families.
From my perspective these kids you are talking about are my buddies, people I went to school with.
You’re just flat out wrong when you suggest that pro-war opinions are developed without a reference point and are based only on abstract concepts.
Decision makers, from all parties, are very mindful of the human costs of war.
This training mission sounds very safe compared to what we’ve been doing the last few years.
Its gotten the thumbs up from the people i’ve been talking to.
Mr. Cramer, one last point of yours I need to address. You said:
“I think it takes a lot of nerve to tell someone how “to act Canadian”.”
Nope!
Telling someone to act Canadian is the same as telling someone to BE POLITE! It should be done all the time.
Sometimes we forget our manners on the internet. A reminder for all of us can be helpful now and again.
Shadow, Art
I raised “CW” because I found Art used the term against the editorial of Winnipeg Free Press.
Art you felt it necessary to cite your experience in the criticism of those don’t share the NDP ‘worldview’ of the mission.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/editorials/afghan-mission-evolves-107676748.html
Art,
You also stated the young volunteers that have joined the military don’t know what they signed up for because they did not have University and work experience. Are you suggesting we restrict recruitment to meet your more informed worldview as the litmus test for consent?
You cited the (NDP CIC Sept Mentor) think tank as proof the mission is a failure and voluntary polls. The opposition and media spent years demonizing the government, our military and the potential for war crimes.
Polls change. A recent one showed 75% support the shift to training. Will you change shift goalposts and drop the use of polls?
My views reflect the majority that the NDP are NOT a credible as a National political party. Only three parties have formed government. Liberals, PC and now CPC. Only 2 parties remain.
You don’t have to support the mission to support providing better equipment of having more boys return home. Tanks, additional armor, helicopters made a difference.
The opposition parties were not balanced in going after this government, our military on the committee for Afghanistan. They rolled over on the document -Parliament supremacy issue.
I think the figure of support for a re-branded “training mission” for about 50%, or little different than support for the existing mission.
Well, there you go again.
I never said I was speaking for everyone, but I did say that I was speaking for myself and I have friends both serving and retired, who share the same view.
As for this:
“Telling someone to act Canadian is the same as telling someone to BE POLITE! It should be done all the time.
Sometimes we forget our manners on the internet. A reminder for all of us can be helpful now and again.”
That is pretty patronizing to say the least. I would pretty careful about telling someone to act like a Canadian. Also, the fact is, none of you know me, and none of you are using real names, so I don’t who you are. If you note reference to the Free Press, you can probably figure out I live in Winnipeg. I have never hid from saying who I am. So you know who I am, but you don’t have a clue about who I am, or what I believe. So, don’t start telling me what is and isn’t Canadian, you haven’t earned the right, and I don’t appreciate being patronized.
Regarding the NDP, yep, never been the government. But Unemployment insurance, through CPP, and Medicare, if there had been no CCD/NDP, Tommy Douglas, and Ed Broadbent et al, there’d be none of these programs. For you Liberals who are going to claim you brough it in, you only did because Tommy Douglas made you do it. Pure and simple. As for your other accomplishments, from the Carter Comission, to Wage and Price controls, both under Trudeau, through cuts in EI benefits and increased hours for eligibility under Axworthy, through to Paul Martin’s draconian budget cuts in the name of fiscal responsiblity, you guys don’t really have much of a record to stand on. As for you Tories on this board, if you guys had your way, all this stuff would be gone, especially among you younger extremists; the days of “Red Tories” are long gone. Nope, you guys have nothing to teach me at all.
You know, what really bothers you guys is the fact that I am challenging the self-congratulatory, arrogant, preposterous narrative, you call political discussion that goes for conversation on this thread. You guys just don’t like being called out for what you are and what this discussion is. I am sick of the hypocracy and the way there is no real and honest discussion of the issues. Regarding public opinion, ok, so right now 53% of Canadians support the mission, as they preceive it, and more importantly understand it. So what? Where you do guys get off thinking you are speaking for Canadians when there hasn’t been any truly meaningful discussion of this ever either in our so called “Liberal media”, or in the house. The NDP has been the concience of the nation and it will continue to do so. We’ll keep calling you guys out, pure and simple. Nope, no more Liberal or Tory corporatist MPs or Prime Ministers for me. I am not going to go away, and I am not going to keep quiet. People like me and the NDP in general will keep speaking up, and get enough MPs elected to force real discussion, and with any luck keep the rest of you guys honest.
Oh by the way, why don’t you guys try speaking for yourselves next time, eh?
Just asking.
Arthur B.B. Cramer LT(N) CD, Ret’d, Winnipeg
Mr. Cramer I think you came on a little strong and now you’re just being rude.
I’ll once again remind you to be polite and behave in a way that does justice to our country and your service.
“I am challenging the self-congratulatory, arrogant, preposterous narrative, you call political discussion that goes for conversation on this thread.”
Words like these don’t get a dialogue going, they shut it down.
I join you in your call for a real and honest discussion on the issues. Now set an example for people and get back to doing that.
Ken, thank you for the corrected Poll numbers. It reflects public opinion does move. During conflicts and negative news cycles. Our decision to act overseas should NOT be based on populism but principles and core values.
Anyone agree the Federal Government has done an effective job on communicating the work/mission/development as recommended in the Manley Report?
The mission has been criticized from day one. The NDP-Bloc have not voted in favour of sending the troops in Afghanistan although it is a UN sanctioned Nato led mission. A small breakaway group within the LPOC broke away from Dion. It appears nothing has changed. The same splinter group (leadership) support the work overseas.
I believe you would find 100% of the posters here would agree each party needs to do less mudslinging and provide more transparency. QP is theatre. How many times our opposition focus on non-issues about Helena, fake lakes, glow sticks to score television soundbites?
The Internal Board of Economy (+ $ 500 million) handling as an example is kept private but they demand no black outs on field notes of our military in a combat mission. ( It is not credible)
What is more important to protect the name of a local afghani supplying information to our troops or a travel office expense from an MP?
Canadians are tuned out to the relentless games on the hill. Prediction for the next general election many seats in the opposition will be switching to the government as a result.
But its not either ‘mud slinging’ or ’straight facts’. That’s a false dichotomy.
And I think that the Manley report plus the government’s off stage plan was itself a piece of managed theatre.
You have a very one sided and convenient of view of what is theatre and manipulation.
Yes the theatre the government uses and managges does frequently get demonized by opponents into a nefarious and secret plan to warp Canada. But demonization is part of politics- part of the thetre.
The fact that objectively over the top demonization exists does not mean that there is no legitimate content to everything else you can relate to the demonization theme.
Stephen Harper uses demonization on just about every major issue. Would that make it OK for me to dismiss everything he says?